THM 2005-04-12 Log
D1116534458
Auriel (82.182.149.46)
#! rsc9 before we get into deeper things, could someone tell
#! me why native awk matters at all?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: because non-native awk sucks
#! rsc9: I'm trying to do shell redirection from system(),
#! and it's just anoying as hell
#!
#! newsham hey russ, I have a question for you about 9p/auth.
#! when you read the protocol from the remote I get "p9sk1@domain\0",
#! but it seems kenfs returns "v.2 p9sk1@..." . What does
#! that mean? Is this part of the negotiation documented
#! somewhere?
#!
#! Major-Wi yeah, like system() uses ksh
#!
#! uriel rsc9: it just doesn't work as expected
#!
#! rsc9 so system() uses ksh. any other problems?
#!
#! Major-Wi i thought the plan 9 shell was rc?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: return codes for system are also weird
#!
#! rsc9 "it just doesn't work as expected" isn't very specific.
#! okay, so system() is different. other things?
#!
#! Major-Wi exits
#!
#! uriel rsc9: using ksh to run stuff from awk in Plan 9 is
#! not what anyone would expect(and again, I haven't managed
#! to get even that to work properly... but maybe I was
#! doing something wrong)
#! Major-Willard: yes, exits is another one
#!
#! rsc9 okay, system and exits. more?
#!
#! noselasd I think it boils down to people not liking APE. On
#! the other hand , it's easy to keep in sync with bwks
#! AWK :-)
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I think I had another one, but now I forgot :)
#!
#! Major-Wi it's not native
#!
#! newsham if you used rc instead of ksh to run system(..) wouldnt
#! that require more work when porting non p9 code?
#!
#! uriel newsham: if I want loonix I know where to find it
#!
#! newsham uriel: system() is from unix, no?
#!
#! Major-Wi well, on 9 you'd assume rc
#!
#! uriel newsham: awk is not just part of ape, awk is a fundamental
#! tool of the system and should work as part of the system
#!
#! Major-Wi yeah
#!
#! rsc9 e already change little pieces of awk rather than use
#! bwk's distribution as is. utf handling is one area.
#! i'm happy to hear that we should use our own system()
#! and exit() too.
#!
#! uriel newsham: no, in awk you really need to get into the
#! shell to do many things, specially in "real" awk that
#! is rather limited in functionality(and I like it that
#! way)
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I think I had some nasty problem with something
#! else, but I'm sorry I forgot what it was, I will let
#! you know when I remember... :/
#!
#! rsc9 detailing specific things are just way better than
#! "i made a native awk; let's use it".
#! otherwise we end up in the cadt model of system development.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: ok, I agree
#!
#! Major-Wi i believe it should ALL be native
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I was just a bit frustrated as my understanding
#! is that awk was treated more as a "unix backwards compat"
#! thing rather than a first class Plan 9 member
#!
#! Major-Wi is this lunix or 9?
#!
#! rsc9 awk is a kind of middle ground.
#!
#! uriel Major-Willard: well, maybe we can get there some time,
#! let's start with somethin and we will see where we
#! get
#! rsc9: yes, I guess it has a bit of a dual role
#!
#! rsc9 boyd, you can be a purist all you want, but once you
#! port gs for the 100th time because they released a
#! new version, you get tired of it.
#!
#! Major-Wi awk? doesn't that get used to mk the kernel?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: still, i feel that there is no substitute for
#! it in Plan 9 world, but then I think Rob never was
#! a big awk fan, right? :)
#!
#! rsc9 awk is a plan 9 utility as much as sed is. most of
#! our awk programs don't use system() so that particular
#! part isn't as well done. but bwk's awk doesn't do utf
#! and the plan 9 one does. so there are accomodations.
#! okay, enough of awk.
#!
#! musasabi Making more changes than necessary just makes updating
#! ports more pain - and that time could most probably
#! be spent on something better.
#!
#! rsc9 musasabi: exactly.
#! jmk is not writing a new installer. as far as i know,
#! no one is.
#!
#! uriel still, awk is not such a big deal, specially if the
#! issues with calling external commands from it and exits
#! are fixed; I was just a bit frustrated the other day
#! trying to get my awk code to work, so I'm sorry if
#! I made so much fuss about it
#!
#! Major-Wi rsc9: ken called me 'an enthusiast'
#!
#! uriel rsc9: yes, that has been cleaned up, still _someone_
#! somehow came up with the idea that he was...
#! (thru some email that no one else has seen)
#! Major-Willard: I think that quite deffines you :)
#!
#! rsc9 well don't blame me for that. if you can track it down,
#! great, but he's not.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I don't blame anyone, and I'm sorry if it seemed
#! like it, I just think that if the process was a bit
#! more transparent that kind of misunderstandings would
#! not happen
#!
#! musasabi What I think would be quite nice would be an easy way
#! to follow plan9 development - what is changed where
#! and why.
#!
#! rsc9 this is really what i wanted to talk about.
#!
#! uriel yes :)
#!
#! Major-Wi uriel: i'd pissed off some guy at USG and he asked
#! ken WTF?
#!
#! rsc9 as far as following what has happened, /dist/replica/plan9.log
#! is a great start.
#!
#! noselasd Well, if someone thought someone was writing a new
#! installer, all it'd take was a post to 9fans :-)
#!
#! newsham uriel: uh, you're suggesting that no one do work without
#! first declaring that they're starting?
#!
#! uriel I got a list of items I would like to see happening
#! in the Plan 9 dev community :)
#!
#! rsc9 boyd: and ken said "he pisses everyone off; don't worry
#! about it."
#! (actually i have no idea)
#!
#! uriel newsham: no
#! newsham: but it's hard for people that comes new to
#! know what is going on, or what is the dev model
#! who is in charge, and so on, patch is great, but it's
#! not clear who/when/what use it
#! it's no clear who decides if a patch goes in or not(it's
#! clear for us, but not for someone coming from outside
#! that has not follwed things for quite some time)
#!
#! newsham uriel: I dont find it any better or worse than other
#! projects (eg. cygwin or freebsd)
#!
#! rsc9 to the extent that anyone is in charge, it's the people
#! who work for bell labs. but mainly it feels like more
#! of a collaboration.
#!
#! uriel that has some advantages, of course, as sets a barrier
#! of entry, but I think right now that barrier is a bit
#! too arbitrary
#!
#! rsc9 jmk and i are the ones who apply patches.
#!
#! newsham in most projects an "outsider" would come up with a
#! patch, send it to the person they think is most appropriate
#! and either they would add the patch or not.
#!
#! Major-Wi ACTION thinks an applied patch should (auto) mail
#! 9fans
#!
#! uriel Major-Willard: not 9fans, but we need a commits list,
#! I'm going to hack it up soon
#!
#! rsc9 how about an applied patch appends an entry to a log
#! on sources.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: it's easy to patch those things on top of patch,
#! but not all changes go thru patch
#!
#! newsham uriel: see /n/sources/patch/applied
#!
#! __20h__ Boyd, you never joined the NetBSD-cvs ML.
#!
#! uriel newsham: I know, as I said, I'm going to write an script
#! that generates emails from that
#!
#! rsc9 patch/list applied
#!
#! musasabi rsc9: what do you mean by /dist/replica/plan9.log -
#! I can only find /dist/replica/client/plan9.log which
#! is not very helpful.. (sorry for the stupid question)
#!
#! rsc9 musasabi: that's what i meant.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: that is not an issue, as I said, it works great,
#! the only problem is that not all chagnes go thru patch
#!
#! rsc9 but all changes do go into the plan9.log. if you look
#! at the changes and can't tell why they were made, then
#! it's fine to ask on 9fans.
#!
#! mjl- musasabi: you can track all file changes with it, just
#! not the description
#!
#! uriel rsc9: it would be nice if there was a single path,
#! and the comments are really helpful, not everyone wants
#! to look thru all diffs...
#! rsc9: also it's nice to see who did the changes, to
#! maybe comment/ask that person... but maybe that can
#! be done with sources now...
#!
#! rsc9 comments just aren't going to happen. i thought about
#! it for a while, but it's not the way the plan 9 guys
#! at bell labs work.
#! someone familiar with the source could certainly read
#! the diffs and maintain a changelog. uriel?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: hehehe..
#! rsc9: well, then I guess I will try to hack something
#! that picks up the things from sources...
#!
#! noselasd I would be *mad* if I had to add comment to every thing
#! I change in projects at work..
#!
#! rsc9 the fact of the matter is that if you care about why
#! things were changed, then you're already reading the
#! source.
#!
#! newsham is it really needed though?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: but it woud be nice to at least know who did
#! the change, I will look if that can be get from sources
#!
#! rsc9 ls -lm will show you who pushed it out to sources.
#!
#! noselasd So I actually understand adding comments may not be
#! "doable" :.-)
#!
#! uriel rsc9: not everyone does, I know many people that follows
#! the commits lists of various projets, and they don't
#! reall all the src, they just read mostly the comments
#! to know what is going on
#! (ask Oksel)
#!
#! __20h__ Comments? I don't even add such things into the code.
#!
#! mjl- i'm oksel, but under plan9
#!
#! rsc9 so fine, then maybe someone maintaining a changelog
#! would be a good contribution, but it won't be any of
#! us.
#!
#! newsham uriel: so if you read through the patch/applied and
#! miss out on 5 or 10% of the additions, are you missing
#! that much?
#!
#! uriel __20h__: code should be slef documenting, changes are
#! different
#!
#! mjl- anyway, users could easily make commit logs
#!
#! rsc9 the bulk of the changes come from patch anyway.
#!
#! musasabi Usually when following a typical open source project
#! I just subscribe to the cvs list and get mails about
#! commits and look at the diff if the message indicates
#! it is something interesting. Of course one can allways
#! diff but that is not very nice to look "is this something
#! interesting".
#!
#! mjl- once a simple mechanisme to comment on changes has
#! been mae
#!
#! newsham if you're actively modifying code, you'll notice if
#! there's a replica/pull that affects code you're working
#! on and you'll know the code enough to dif
#! if you're just trying to get a feel for "whats going
#! on", its probably not that important if you miss an
#! item or two
#!
#! rsc9 okay, i think we've beat this changelog thing into
#! the ground.
#!
#! mjl- yups
#!
#! noselasd musasabi: But what is the usefulness of that ? It's
#! "nice to know" bot imo not significant..
#!
#! rsc9 i'd be happy to have someone maintain a changelog on
#! the side and email us if they want to know more about
#! a change that wasn't done through patch.
#!
#! uriel noselasd9: it's more significant for people that are
#! just starting to get into the system
#!
#! rsc9 switching to patch acceptance criteria (and feel free
#! to add this to the wiki).
#! jmk or i apply patches. acceptance criteria aren't
#! well-defined, but basically i want to see:
#!
#! uriel rsc9: yes, documenting that a bit would be very nice
#!
#! rsc9 1. an explanation of what the problem is
#!
#! noselasd uriel: Ok - thatks a point.
#!
#! rsc9 2. a minimal set of fixes, with no gratuitous changes
#! 3. the new code has to look like (style-wise) the old
#! code
#! 4. if the external behavior changes, document the change
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 #2 meaning to include no whitespace or formatting changes,
#! yes?
#!
#! rsc9 #2 yes.
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 that makes sense
#! most other projects i know of have the same requirements
#!
#! rsc9 if i get patches that don't do those 4, then sometimes
#! i sorry them
#! with a note explaining what i'd like to see in a future
#! patch.
#!
#! musasabi as a sidenote would patches adding commentation to
#! existing code be welcome?
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 gratuitous changes of that nature make it more difficult
#! for the reviewer to actually review the code
#!
#! uriel yes, sounds very reasonable, just what we needed
#!
#! rsc9 but most of the time i just bring the patch up to snuff
#! myself, noting what i did, and then apply it.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: do you want to make a wiki page about "how to
#! contribute"? or should someone else(me?) do it based
#! on what you said here?
#!
#! rsc9 o for example i edit almost all the man page changes
#! that get submitted for english and man page conventions.
#! i haven't edited the wiki in years. i'd prefer someone
#! else do it.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: ok, I will do
#!
#! rsc9 my first letters of sentences are occasionally getting
#! chopped off due to an acme irc bug. y'all will have
#! to cope. ;-)
#!
#! uriel heh, you should try irc7, seems very popular this days
#! :)
#!
#! Major-Wi ACTION agrees with that despite #3, but learnt the
#! necessity for #3 while hacking the 7th Ed sh
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 thanks, uriel. i was going to jump in, but i don't
#! have a drawterm open ATM
#!
#! Major-Wi yo m4
#!
#! rsc9 if you create a patch and then use patch/email to give
#! us your email address, you get email notification when
#! the patch is applied/sorried.
#!
#! __20h__ Irc7 only supports one channel.
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 rsc9: i think we can interpolate ;-)
#!
#! rsc9 any other patch questions?
#!
#! Major-Wi deletions?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: "saved"?
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 rsc9: thanks for providing those guidelines for the
#! community. from the patches i've submitted in the past
#! (before patch), i pretty much gathered all that, but
#! it's good for the rest of the community to know.
#!
#! newsham 20h: irc7 is f2f's server/client? if so, you can open
#! multiple windows in different channels, and you can
#! still use multiple channels in one window if you dont
#! bind the window to a channel
#!
#! rsc9 patch/note saved/whatever-is-there will tell you about
#! saved.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: seems a bit weird and redundant, just reject
#! it and sugest put into sources dir
#!
#! rsc9 saved is for things that aren't going in just because
#! they don't fit in/feel like plan 9.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: yes, but then why wasn't rio-bg saved? ;P
#!
#! rsc9 sorry is for things that have been rejected. the intent
#! is to clean up applied and sorry once in a while so
#! they don't grow without bound.
#!
#! newsham btw, does patch/create work in acme? the first tiem
#! I tried it in acme I had issues but I dont know if
#! it was just the long delay that threw me off or the
#! bits that make it put the rio window into editing mode
#! (its been too long for me to recall exactly)
#!
#! musasabi A simple "how to contribute a patch" example could
#! be nice in the wiki.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: my point is, why not just let people maintain
#! external patches in their own dirs...
#!
#! rsc9 i actually thought rio-bg was the one i saved. i was
#! surprised earlier today when i noticed i hadn't.
#!
#! newsham musa: there's an example in the man page, no?
#!
#! rsc9 patch/create assumes it can turn on hold mode. it probably
#! doesn't work well in win windows.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: if the sources "private" dirs are organized a
#! bit better, I think that would be a much better place
#! for things that are not ready, or don't even fit into
#! the main distribution, but that some people might like
#! to keep around
#!
#! newsham that would be good to note in the wiki too. (and maybe
#! the man page)
#!
#! uriel yup, I have in my TODO list looking over patch/*; it
#! could use some polishing
#! BUGS? :)
#!
#! Major-Wi deletions
#!
#! uriel but should be easy to fix, I hope..
#!
#! rsc9 boyd: fix deletions and i'll apply the patch.
#!
#! uriel what is "deletions"? sorry, I missed that
#!
#! __20h__ Patch doesn't support the deletion of files.
#!
#! uriel ah, I see, yes
#!
#! musasabi newsham: that does not say anything about adding/removing
#! files (or directories)
#!
#! mjl- patching files into existence works
#!
#! rsc9 deletions are not very common so i'm not very worried.
#! adding files does work.
#! i moved some stuff into patch/save
#! saved
#! any other patch complaints?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I think nothing significant... I would say that
#! still would be nice if the labs would use it, even
#! without comments, but well..
#!
#! musasabi an email notification to a list when something happens
#! could be nice, but by no means very important.
#!
#! __20h__ What if I want to patch a saved patch?
#!
#! uriel (maybe a way to just have it apply automatically pathces
#! if you have the right perms
#! musasabi: I will do that
#!
#! __20h__ There's an typo in the rio-background.
#!
#! musasabi uriel: thanks.
#!
#! rsc9 it can't automatically apply patches because of the
#! way we keep our internal source tree in sync with sources.
#!
#! uriel musasabi: the only thing is that with the current system
#! I have to make something that checks both sources/replica
#! and patch... which is a bit anoying as they look qutie
#! different
#!
#! Major-Wi nah auto-application is a bad idea
#!
#! rsc9 patching saved patches doesn't seem lke a very common
#! case.
#! you don't need the check patch. patch is for things
#! pending on sources.
#!
#! newsham so the patch/email thing causes automatic notification?
#! What about mailing a mailing list as well? That might
#! be useful.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: one thing, what about keeping public the list
#! of changes from your private tree to the public one?
#! (if that is possible)
#!
#! rsc9 what do you mean?
#!
#! Major-Wi like i said, mail 9fans
#!
#! rsc9 mailing 9fans will drive away all the people who don't
#! care.
#!
#! newsham major: i dont think everything should go to 9fans
#!
#! uriel rsc9: jmk mentioned in his email that you guys get
#! an email every day with all the files that are different
#! in the distro and in your local tree.
#!
#! rsc9 e're talking pretty trivial stuff a lot of the time.
#!
#! newsham but creating a new mailing list (ie. googlegroups.com)
#! is really easy these days
#!
#! Major-Wi look we have 250 patches
#!
#! __20h__ Not googlegroups.com.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: yes, but it's small things that make the whole
#! dev model ;)
#!
#! Major-Wi that"s zip compared to the spam and other crapa
#!
#! __20h__ Google is the commercial NSA of the future.
#!
#! uriel __20h__: I'm sure nashi can setup some lists in mordor
#!
#! rsc9 i don't want to make that list public. if we want the
#! change to go out, we'll push the file. seeing the file
#! list doesn't strike me as very interesting.
#!
#! Major-Wi __20h__: :)
#!
#! newsham 20h: and patch/applied info is sensitive because?
#!
#! rsc9 i'd be happy to append the mails to a mailbox file
#! on sources. if people want to watch it and generate
#! auto emails from it then fine.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: ok, I jsut thought it was interesting if someone
#! was working on something that had pending changes or
#! something, but well
#! newsham: good question
#! rsc9: sounds like a cool idea
#!
#! rsc9 uriel: that's not the way that list works. if something
#! has changed in our main tree, it almost always goes
#! out. people working on little projects keep it in their
#! own home directories for the most part.
#! the bulk of the files are config.
#!
#! __20h__ newsham, it's like who cares about privacy, because
#! they knew already everything?
#!
#! rsc9 the only two things sitting in the tree that are major
#! are software cursor support (waiting to finish vbe)
#! and usb storage (from /n/sources/rmiller, and he asked
#! us not to put it in the tree yet)
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I see, that makes sense, then it would be nice
#! what interesting work might be lurking in the corners
#! of home dirs, but I guess that is harder ;)
#!
#! rsc9 that's things sitting in our internal tree that aren't
#! on sources.
#!
#! newsham 20h: i'm not sure what the issue would be with the
#! nsa (or any other govt organization) seeing any public
#! mailing list. its a public list.
#!
#! Major-Wi deletions? how about the 0 mode 0 size file?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: there is people outside the labs working in vbe(I
#! guess you know alreay)...
#!
#! __20h__ newsham, it's about Google -- but that's not the discussion.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: and I know some people interested in hacking
#! usb storage
#!
#! rsc9 i saw some comment about andrey having special access
#! to insider info in the logs. that's not really true.
#! we'll talk to anyone who emails us. it's just that
#! a lot of people seem content to speculate on irc instead
#! of dashing off an email.
#!
#! newsham irc rumors are more enticing than reality.
#!
#! musasabi rsc9: well most newbies don't know who to send the
#! email ;)
#!
#! rsc9 they handed the vbe code to me to put into the tree,
#! and i'm still integrating it. i'm working on putting
#! it in aux/vga instead of 9load. if someone wants to
#! help, feel free to email me.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: ok, sorry, that is my fault, but well, one doesn't
#! want to bother you guys too much with obvious questions...
#!
#! rsc9 musasabi: then it's up to you old-time irc hands to
#! point them in the right direction. or you email us
#! instead.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: if a contact point was documented somewhere it
#! would be nice, can we put your email in the wiki as
#! "contact point"(maybe better 9fans)... which brings
#! us to plan9-dev list...
#!
#! rsc9 uriel: people who want to hack usb storage can look
#! in /n/sources/miller and then contact richard with
#! changes. he's heading that up.
#!
#! uriel I understand that some people don't feel confortable
#! discusing serious stuff in 9fans due to all the noise,
#! but it seems that plan9-dev failed...
#!
#! rsc9 boyd: treating deletions as size 0 files (no need for
#! mode 0) sounds fine to me.
#!
#! Major-Wi well, i like overkill
#!
#! uriel rsc9: do you think a low-noise forum is needed for
#! dev discusion?
#!
#! rsc9 i'm glad plan9-dev failed. i don't like the dichotomy.
#! i refused to subscribe for quite a while, although
#! i wish i'd been there to help with designing 9p2000.u.
#! i think 9fans is a fine place for dev discussion. it
#! happens occasionally.
#!
#! Major-Wi and it saw your can't read it and there's nothing in
#! it
#! it says
#!
#! uriel rsc9: ok, I see, I guess people will have to put up
#! with 9fans then, the problem I see is that lots of
#! disucion seems to happen in private email instead..
#! :/
#! which leaves most people out of the loop
#!
#! rsc9 mode 0 files are a pain because you can't even open
#! them.
#!
#! Major-Wi and /n/sources? how does one get a dir?
#!
#! uriel Major-Willard: I was going to get there next
#!
#! rsc9 that will happen on a dev-only list too. the only reason
#! to have a dev-only list is that people on 9fans don't
#! want to see the dev chatter, which i very much doubt.
#!
#! uriel ;)
#!
#! musasabi btw would making a common readline function (basically
#! the readln function which is copy/pasted in many places
#! make sense? (just found myself copying the code and
#! I could submit a patch if such a thing would be wanted
#! and I knew the correct lib for it)
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I thought it was the other way around, people
#! interested in dev wasn't interesed in 9fans noise,
#! so they used priv email instead,,, I guess I was wrong
#! again :)
#!
#! noselasd 9fans doesn't seem to be the most overloaded list.
#! Dev discussion there would fit fine, no ?
#!
#! Major-Wi READLINE? are you MAD?
#!
#! rsc9 plan9-dev got created because of the ridiculous amounts
#! in spam back in july. that's solved.
#!
#! uriel musasabi: over my dead body
#! +quintile
#!
#! __20h__ Boyd, there's no GNU inside. ;)
#!
#! musasabi Major-Willard: not *nix readline.
#!
#! rsc9 you don't need readline unless you want to read a password.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: good, then that is solved
#!
#! rsc9 if you're reading from a console, read() returns one
#! line at a time.
#!
#! noselasd musasabi: mouse around :-)
#!
#! Major-Wi i don't need readline() i have hold mode
#!
#! uriel rsc9: souces dirs..
#! rsc9: I documented in the wiki that to get a sources
#! dir one should email you or rsc(I hope you don't mind
#! :))
#!
#! rsc9 the usual thing with sources dirs is to mail me or
#! jmk and we'll create it. boyd is an exception.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: the thing is that there is no criteria to who
#! gets one dir and who dosn't
#! rsc9: that dosn't seem fair to me
#!
#! musasabi rsc9: but I don't want to assume stdin is a console
#! - and the existing code seems read one char at a time
#! till it gets to the end of the line..
#!
#! uriel (actually it seems plain stupid to me0
#!
#! rsc9 jmk wasn't feeling very kind when boyd asked.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: well, are you feeling more kind today? :)
#!
#! Major-Wi rsc9: should be a fortune "<rsc9> the usual thing with
#! sources dirs is to mail me or jmk and we'll create
#! it. boyd is an exception."
#!
#! rsc9 ;-)
#! i'll make boyd a directory but first i want to put
#! all the directories in a subdirectory
#! instead of the root.
#!
#! uriel I personally would be upset if someone that has done
#! so much for Plan 9 was left out, I think it's just
#! _wrong_; boyd might be a difficult person, but that
#! is no excuse not to let him contribute
#!
#! rsc9 choices for names? /n/sources/users/foo? /n/sources/userstuff/foo?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: contrib?
#!
#! rsc9 i'm not getting into a discussion about boyd.
#!
#! Major-Wi usr
#!
#! rsc9 there's already a contrib.
#! usr is home directories which these aren't.
#!
#! __20h__ home :P
#!
#! Major-Wi they sort of are
#!
#! rsc9 contrib is good.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: yes, that needs to be cleaned up a bit, there
#! is "contrib", "extras" "cvs", ... and so on, quite
#! messy..
#!
#! mjl- there already is a contrib... yeah
#!
#! quintile community ?
#!
#! Major-Wi no
#!
#! uriel quintile: too long :)
#!
#! Major-Wi contrib
#!
#! musasabi users and contrib sound nice.
#!
#! Major-Wi or wip
#!
#! uriel vt3 and I volunter to keep an index of the stuff in
#! contrib then
#!
#! rsc9 great.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: some guidelines for how to use sources dirs,
#! similar to the ones you gave for patch would be very
#! apreciated
#! (mostly to keep some order)
#!
#! __20h__ What's the 9grid dir for?
#!
#! uriel (and I guess somethign like http://plan9.bell-labs.com/9grid/AUP.html
#! can be linked from the wiki)
#! __20h__: good question
#!
#! noselasd Ick. did irc7 swallow a line of mine :-
#!
#! uriel (and links into my next question, that is what is up
#! with *.grid.bell-labs.com.)
#!
#! rsc9 i don't know anything about grid. ask andrey.
#!
#! __20h__ Ok.
#!
#! rsc9 okay, i created stuff in /n/sources/contrib. please
#! move your fiels.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: what about *.grid.bell-labs.com then? quintile
#! said it's still up and running, but there is no way
#! to get new accounts?
#!
#! rsc9 i don't know anything about grid. ask andrey.
#! i believe new accounts only go to people contributing
#! resources. but i know nothing. it's presotto and ron's
#! baby, and it's mostly stalled.
#!
#! uriel ok, will do then, I thought he didn't know as he was
#! around when it was discused
#! well, I was asking because all the other 9grid.??-s
#! poping up over the wrold..
#!
#! rsc9 i don't know anything.
#!
#! uriel OK, I will nag f2f when he is back :)
#! rsc9: about p9p and merging the docs..
#!
#! rsc9 about sources/contrib, it's for posting software for
#! plan 9 users. if you use up too much disk or post crap
#! we'll probably do something.
#!
#! uriel Oksel: and I ahve looked at it, and it looks nasty..
#! the changes are too many and too hard to check which
#! ones should go and with ones are p9p specific..
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 rsc9: the perms on my dir in contrib are incorrect
#! :-)
#!
#! rsc9 fixed
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 thx
#!
#! Major-Wi methinks one dir is missing
#!
#! uriel my proposal is to merge both documentation, and have
#! an extra section for p9p specific pages, and an extra
#! section inside pages that are different documenting
#! the diferences for p9p
#!
#! rsc9 no.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: ok, but I tell you, merging back and forth is
#! unpractical..
#!
#! rsc9 i don't want p9p to pollute the main distribution.
#! changes aren't frequent enough to merit that.
#!
#! uriel I think that you will find it harder and harder to
#! keep them in sync...
#!
#! rsc9 if we can get them in sync to start, then keeping them
#! in sync is easy.
#!
#! uriel well, if people wants to start working on the Plan
#! 9 docs, how will you merge back? it goes both ways..
#! rsc9: it's hard for people that might have access to
#! one but not the other
#!
#! rsc9 i know when the last time i merged was, and occasionally
#! i run diff to see what's happened on sources in the
#! last (say) 3 months and then do it that way.
#! everyone has access to the dump on sources and to the
#! cvs history for p9p. both let you diff by date.
#! the trick is getting them up to date.
#! that is, in sync the first time.
#! regardless of what solution we decide on going forward,
#! that initial work needs to happen.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: ok, we will try, but seems like a tedious and
#! futile task from our POV..
#!
#! rsc9 i don't see why it's hard to figure out, given some
#! diffs, whether they apply to plan 9.
#! the way i see it is this.
#! the goal is to bring the plan 9 man pages up to date.
#! i already identified some places
#! where they were out of date and fixed it in p9p when
#! i did the initial p9p man pages.
#! diffing p9p and plan 9 man pages just points out some
#! places where you need to update the plan 9 pages.
#! i'm not saying you should diff the pages that have
#! changed dramatically, like intro(1)
#!
#! uriel yes, but some times it's hard to tell..
#!
#! mjl- i've only looked at acid, and it's a bit of a problem
#! that i've never used it beyond lstk()
#! so a bit hard to know what applies to both now
#!
#! uriel you have to actually look thru the diff to see which
#! changes are p9p only and which are p9...
#!
#! mjl- since i also don't use the p9p version
#!
#! rsc9 acid is a tough one. i'd skip acid.
#!
#! mjl- guess that's a problem of too little experience...
#! ok
#! will look further then. already have some scripts that
#! show diffs btw (if anyone wants them)
#!
#! rsc9 if you diff all the pages and make a big file with
#! all the diffs, you should be able to pick out the easy
#! ones.
#! once you do the easy ones, feel free to email me to
#! ask about the hard ones.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: another advantage of keeping a single copy of
#! the docs is that the implementation differences are
#! clearly documented somewhere, that way they can be
#! keept track of, and hopefully be reduced to a minimun
#! over time
#!
#! rsc9 i agree with you in principle. eventually i'll probably
#! use cvs branches so that the p9p cvs is essentially
#! keeping track of the diffs between the two.
#! of course, it's naive to believe that all the implementation
#! differences expose themselves in documentation.
#!
#! uriel ACTION would recomend using something other than cvs
#! to keep track of branches, but that is a detail ;)
#! rsc9: yes, but it's better to try to keep track of
#! them than just ignore them
#!
#! newsham whats wrong with cvs branches?
#!
#! __20h__ dho did some sort of new "cvs" -- no code yet.
#!
#! rsc9 let's not talk about version control. more cadt crap.
#!
#! uriel newsham: merging patches back and forth from on branch
#! to another is quite nasty
#! rsc9: yes :)
#!
#! rsc9 i'm not a power user so cvs is fine. and i know how
#! to use it, crappy though it is.
#!
#! mjl- rsc9: that's what i was trying with acid too (looking
#! into the code)
#!
#! newsham <- likes CVS and their branch management (overall,
#! some complaints of course)
#!
#! rsc9 don't try to diff the acid code.
#!
#! mjl- will do that when writing docs (which is why i come
#! up with these usage patches ;))
#!
#! newsham 20h: have you guys looked at larch/arch ?
#!
#! uriel newsham: you are crazy ;P
#!
#! mjl- arch... bazaar... yay
#!
#! noselasd Oh - SCM fest. (/me brings the popcorn) ( *SIGH*)
#!
#! uriel newsham: I have, lets leave it for antoher time
#!
#! rsc9 brb. have fun talking about version control.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: no, no, we gave up already!
#!
#! mjl- will go for a snack :)
#!
#! uriel ^_^
#!
#! __20h__ newsham, It's not my idea. Replica and Patch is enough
#! for me.
#!
#! noselasd Please. cvs vs whater. Insignificant.
#!
#! newsham arch has some nice properties (and seems to be tool
#! oriented)
#!
#! noselasd whatever*
#!
#! musasabi arch is quite complex etc
#!
#! musasabi point.
#! rsc9: So refactoring copy-paste code into common code
#! is generally not a desirable change?
#!
#! __20h__ And who implements metadata in 9p? :P
#!
#! uriel newsham: we can argue over arch anothter time, lets
#! not scare rsc9 off ;)
#!
#! newsham i have nothing to argue about..
#!
#! rsc9 back
#!
#! uriel newsham: sorry, my english sucks, I mean "discus"
#!
#! rsc9 musasabi: don't understand the question
#! oh, if you're talking about readline, you should be
#! able to call read.
#! how often do you read passwords anyway?
#!
#! musasabi rsc9: readline (readln and probably other names), e{malloc,free,realloc}
#! and probably others.
#!
#! __20h__ auth_proxy();
#!
#! uriel you could use a gui app for reading pass...
#!
#! __20h__ Factotum does the password management.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: it would be interesting to know more of what
#! are your plans for p9p
#! __20h__: yup
#!
#! mjl- emalloc and stuff has already been discussed, read
#! the archives
#!
#! rsc9 i don't really have plans. as i need more software,
#! i convert it. but i'm at a stable point now.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I guess I was thinking more from the POV of bringing
#! both code-bases closer..
#!
#! __20h__ dtLinux - stable
#!
#! uriel (I have heard rumours that the venti code in p9p is
#! more uptodate than in p9...)
#!
#! rsc9 one thing on the horizon is adding a c front end compiler
#! so that the sources look more the same.
#! the sources already look almost identical (acme is
#! the big exception but even those changes are simple
#! if tedious)
#!
#! newsham c->c ?
#!
#! rsc9 yes
#!
#! musasabi mjl-: actually I was the one proposing it in the archives
#! ;)
#!
#! rsc9 http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/cmd/venti
#!
#! uriel yes, that is a problem, hopefully I will get charless
#! to fix up kencc some time this century and the OpenBSD
#! guys will take care of the porting
#!
#! rsc9 no no no. i am not putting a real compiler in. just
#! c->c.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: just curious, why not?
#! -pperez
#!
#! musasabi 8c can be compiled on *nix, but the output is just
#! not very usable.
#!
#! --------- 5 mins
#!
#! rsc9 because porting a compiler requires making it work
#! with all the system libraries and the like. it's too
#! much work.
#! the p9p goal is to play well with unix.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I see your point, still I hope some day someone
#! does it
#!
#! quintile rsc9: the new venti include auth?
#!
#! newsham musasabi: wouldn't be that hard to fix it to emit useable
#! (ie. elf) binaries (some arches already have a linker
#! flag)
#!
#! rsc9 besides, who really wants to keep up with all the library
#! conventions on sunos.
#! emitting elf is easy. emitting useful debugging is
#! much harder.
#! i have an 8c that can create hello, world.
#!
#! Major-Wi ELF -- yuk
#!
#! newsham blah dwarf.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I'd be interested in seeing that(even if trivial)
#!
#! rsc9 i have yet to hear a good idea about how to do auth
#! in venti.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: what about the venti rewrite
#! (which I found out about by reading the notes file
#! in rejected patches....)
#!
#! rsc9 i'm in the middle of rewriting venti. it's a lot faster,
#! perhaps a little buggier, and needs a bit of cleanup
#! before it will be ready for prime time.
#! any other projects people care about?
#!
#! newsham wouldnt even a very limited amount of auth be significantly
#! better than no auth?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: just curious, but don't you think that this kinds
#! of cases the Open Source mantra of "release early,
#! release often", could help?
#!
#! noselasd What projects are there - (at the labs , if any) ?
#!
#! rsc9 newsham: let's postpone the venti auth. i can't do
#! multiple conversations.
#!
#! newsham ok
#!
#! Major-Wi i have a cool idea for venti, but it's an expensive
#! venture
#!
#! quintile projects - cross domain auth between servers (for a
#! grid).
#!
#! Major-Wi too complex
#!
#! rsc9 uriel: release early, release often only works if you
#! have time to keep up with the submitted changes. i'm
#! focusing on something other than venti.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: ok, I thought it could help with testing, and
#! maybe someone could pick up if you dont' have the time
#! to maintain/finish it, but well..
#!
#! rsc9 the venti code is available if you want to hack on
#! it. it's in the same place as plan 9 ports. module
#! name is venti instead of plan9.
#!
#! uriel quintile: I think that was discused at OSDI and rejected,
#! the current model seems good enough, otherwise I would
#! recomend you to talk with charles about the Inferno
#! auth model..
#!
#! newsham uriel: so far nobody's really picked up ron's xen stuff
#! if you're looking for stuff to pick up...
#!
#! uriel rsc9: ok, thanks
#! newsham: I know, I'm not saying that it will hapen,
#! I'm just saying that it costs nothing to give people
#! a chance
#!
#! quintile uriel: yep, just interested in russ's opinion.
#!
#! rsc9 lucho helped me find some things. he emailed me.
#!
#! uriel newsham: didn't kuroneko pick up your spark code?
#!
#! __20h__ Are there plans to have more than the PC-distribution?
#!
#! rsc9 as for venti auth, it's just not a priority.
#!
#! uriel newsham: and didn't ericvh pick up v9fs even if after
#! some years?
#!
#! newsham uriel: so far three people have approached me interested
#! in sparc v8 stuff. I dont really know what has become
#! of their work.. they may still be working on it.
#!
#! rsc9 calling it a pc distribution is a little misleading.
#! it's a full distribution, it just only installs on
#! pcs.
#!
#! uriel newsham: the thing is that maybe you get something
#! useful out of it, maybe not, but the chance is worth
#! it, I think,
#! anyway, just to be anoying, what about 9load... ;P
#!
#! rsc9 what about it?
#!
#! uriel is someone working on it?
#!
#! rsc9 as far as i know, not much is happening with 9load.
#!
#! uriel I also have heard(from third hand) of a rewrite of
#! 9load..
#!
#! rsc9 vbe support got contributed for 9load, though i plan
#! to move it out.
#! jmk is working on an amd64 port, which includes cleaning
#! up 9load some, but it's not a from-scratch rewrite.
#!
#! uriel ok, I guess that leave us free to fix the anoying IDE
#! handling... :)
#!
#! rsc9 what annoying ide handling?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: any chances we will get any of that cleaning
#! up?
#!
#! rsc9 any of what?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: if you don't have your ide devices in the right
#! magic convination it wont work
#!
#! rsc9 huh?
#!
#! uriel rsc9: 9load clean up...
#! rsc9: ever tries to install having your CD-ROM as secondary
#! master?
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 yeah
#!
#! rsc9 the 9load cleanup will come out when the amd64 port
#! is ready. i believe the changes to 9load are pretty
#! minimal so don't worry about it.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: its' a very commonly reported problem
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 i do it all the time
#!
#! rsc9 does the kernel work in that situation?
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 sure does
#!
#! noselasd uriel: works fine. You just need to type the magic
#! sdD1!... and so on :-)
#!
#! uriel rsc9: it should, I would say... but IIRC it has also
#! some problems
#! noselasd9: nope
#!
#! rsc9 ide probing is black magic. the sdata there is supposed
#! to be similar to the sdata in the kernel (dma is yanked
#! out), so feel free to compare and fix.
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 all you have to do is specify a different drive to
#! load the kernel and the root fs
#!
#! noselasd uriel: funny, cause I did that yesterday though..
#!
#! uriel noselasd9: it doesn't work, and I have gone thru that
#! problem at least three different times, the people
#! at the 9con can tell you, we were a room packed with
#! plan9 users and no one could get it to work until we
#! changed the ide config
#!
#! newsham m4d: isnt that because of the plan9.ini, not the 9load?
#!
#! rsc9 ide probing is black magic. some systems have buggy
#! bioses too.
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 newsham: iirc, yes
#!
#! uriel rsc9: yes, that too :(
#!
#! rsc9 if you want to go after this bug and fix it, please
#! do. trust me -- it won't go away on its own.
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 ide probing is indeeed black magic. i've seen some
#! really bizarre stuff
#!
#! uriel rsc9: ok, thanks
#! drawterm..
#! who maintains it? f2f says he doesn't, even if he does...
#!
#! rsc9 i hate drawterm. andrey is doing a good job maintaining
#! the 9p1 drawterm.
#!
#! uriel I hate dt too, but it's a fact of life..
#!
#! rsc9 brucee is busy with other stuff though i think he might
#! have a good 9p2000 drawterm at some point.
#! dt2k is worth using, and if it didn't crash once in
#! a while i'd install it.
#! eventually i want to replace drawterm with a collection
#! of programs in plan9port.
#!
#! uriel would be nice if f2f's changes were in the main distro,
#! and handled with patch, but f2f won't do it because
#! he says "I'm not the maintainer", so he basically maintains
#! a fork
#!
#! rsc9 but progress is slow. i do have ssl working though.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: where is dt2k?
#! ACTION has never seen it, but I know f2f has got the
#! code for some ancient version of it somewhere..
#!
#! f2f if you notice, uriel, the binaries have disappeared
#! from the main distro with a small note pointing to
#! ucalgary.
#!
#! uriel f2f: ah, that is new, and I don't like it, but well...
#!
#! f2f i think rsc just doesn't want that mess in p9
#!
#! uriel would be nice to have it in sources at least
#! contrib/f2f?
#!
#! f2f i'm fine with ucalgary until a better replacement comes.
#! this is where the dt2k code is too, at least the latest
#! version i have
#!
#! rsc9 andrey is in the drawterm group now.
#!
#! uriel cool
#!
#! f2f rsc, do you want me to merge the dt changes?
#!
#! rsc9 the 9p1 changes? yes.
#!
#! f2f ok, will do
#!
#! rsc9 brucee is swamped with other work. he won't mind.
#!
#! uriel ACTION would like to know more about dt2k and what
#! is going on with it :)
#!
#! f2f but i'll keep the binaries on the web
#!
#! rsc9 dt2k works well enough that i use it every day to apply
#! patches.
#! it crashes occasionally (some x problem) and i restart
#! it.
#! i never got around to a windows port.
#! i don't believe it's the right approach so i am loathe
#! to spend time debugging it.
#! yes please keep binaries on the web.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I think I know many people that would apreciate
#! dt2k even without windoze port
#! (and I know others that might fix the windoze port)
#!
#! rsc9 google the 9fans archives for dt2k. i put it out there.
#!
#! uriel ok, that is the latest version then?
#!
#! rsc9 sure.
#!
#! Major-Wi drawterm is pretty solid
#!
#! uriel ok, will do..
#!
#! f2f http://pages.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~mirtchov/p9/dt2k.tgz
#!
#! uriel f2f: that is the latest version too?
#!
#! f2f i got this from skip and made it compile cleanly under
#! X
#!
#! uriel I see...
#!
#! f2f that's the latest i've heard about
#!
#! rsc9 do you use it? does it crash?
#!
#! f2f it crashes, yes. i don't use it because the alpha blending
#! is messed up (BGR vs RGB i believe)
#! and it's a bit slower
#!
#! axelB (what about "replace drawterm with a collection of
#! programs in plan9port" and windows?)
#!
#! Major-Wi BGR?
#!
#! rsc9 what about it?
#!
#! uriel axelB: ah, fuck windows! (sorry, could not restis ;P)
#!
#! axelB just wondering. p9p doesn't do windows, I thought
#!
#! noselasd uriel: can you ever ? :)
#!
#! uriel noselasd9: if you knew...
#!
#! rsc9 eventually plan9port will work on windows. don't care
#! enough right now. very happy with my mac.
#!
#! axelB ok. fine
#!
#! __20h__ Cygwin?
#!
#! uriel axelB: buy a mac mini, they are cheap ;)
#!
#! Major-Wi err, p9p port to windows is a major, hideous task
#!
#! rsc9 it's not any more work than the original unix work.
#! i've done it before.
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 i miss the mac i had for my previous job
#!
#! uriel I guess another issue is p9p integration with v9fs
#! and similar, but without eric or lucho around I think
#! better leave that for other time
#!
#! rsc9 my position is that p9p will not become dependent on
#! v9fs -- it needs to work on systems without v9fs --
#! but i'm perfectly happy if lucho and eric need hooks.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: sounds reasonable..
#!
#! rsc9 we put one hook in already. auth_proxy tries to open
#! /mnt/factotum/* before switching to the p9p factotum
#! socket.
#!
#! musasabi Is there a reason plan9 headers don't have #ifdef protection
#! agains multiple #includes ? (stdio.h mainly - some
#! headers have function prototypes with FILE* and making
#! sure stdio.h is included just once adds many trivial
#! (unnecessary) changes.
#!
#! uriel musasabi: that is a well known one, use sane headers
#!
#! rsc9 don't include headers twice.
#!
#! uriel exactly
#!
#! rsc9 if you're compiling legacy code, then use ape. the
#! ape stdio.h is protected.
#!
#! uriel musasabi: feel free to add to the faq
#! rsc9: BTW, could you update the running version of
#! the wiki, I really need it to make the FAQ page useable..
#!
#! Major-Wi Is there a reason plan9 headers don't have #ifdef protection
#! agains multiple #includes ? -- YES, YOU are 'sposed
#! to get that right
#!
#! musasabi ACTION uses the "not my code" and "uriel will flame
#! me to death for APE" arguments.
#!
#! rsc9 google for "follow the simple rule" pike
#! if it's not your code, you should use ape.
#!
#! uriel or fix it :)
#!
#! __20h__ Or delete it.
#!
#! Major-Wi rm is a swell prgramm debugger
#!
#! musasabi nontrivial socket code + APE was not very nice so I
#! am trying to live with 8c -p.
#!
#! uriel rsc9: I got some changes to the templates of the wiki,
#! I haven't sent them because I have seen that the ones
#! in the distribution and the ones in the plan 9 wiki
#! are not in sync anyway...
#!
#! m4dh4tt3 when fixing it means re-writing it, the probability
#! that it will get done approaches zero
#!
#! rsc9 uriel: i think i restarted wikifs
#!
#! uriel rsc9: let me check again...
#!
#! [...]
#!
#! rsc9 gotta go. forgot about another appt.
#
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